Curse

tmakinen · Jan 18, 2010, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It's impossible, given GW's combat system, to make a boss that is challenging without being "cheap" and "cheesy." You either get something that's too easy, or something that is artificially and frustratingly hard because some normal rule or other is suspended.

That is very true if you are talking about a single boss creature. As you say, GW's combat system is designed for team-vs-team fights. The single opponent in a 1-vs-N situation is so deeply disadvantaged that there aren't any good balancing options left, it's gimmicks all the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

So what's the solution? To give up. Accept that you cannot make a boss that's a fun challenge and focus on making bosses with a cool "look and feel" and enough hp that the player realizes it's a boss before they kill it.

This is where I disagree. The solution is to replace single bosses with balanced boss mobs. The non-boss HM dwarf mobs in Vloxen Excavations are harder than 95% of all HM bosses in the entire game, just because they are well balanced with an ability to rez.

mrmango · Jan 18, 2010, 06:44 AM // 06:44

I'd like to see stuff like Dhuum but a bit less PVE-skill based, or something....less.... imba, I guess?
Lack of conditions boxes you in, slightly. That I dislike.

trialist · Jan 18, 2010, 06:45 AM // 06:45

There isn't really much difference between the GW bosses to be honest.

They pretty much follow the formula of "Hulk smashes you! You tickle hulk" with the more difficult bosses being "Hulk smashes you more! You make hulk laugh" and the most difficult bosses being "Hulk absolutely pulverises you! You make hulk ROFL".

Dark Saviour · Jan 18, 2010, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by headlesshobbs

Dragons and flying creatures are disappointing. you don't see them using those wings for keeping out of reach, flying over areas you don't have clear access to and not being able to hit them should you be the melee type. If you want to see the best example, look at the bosses of phantasy star online (youtube if you need to) and you'll see how much this steps aside from the world rules that every creature in this game abides to.

Also whats with giants in this game? I want them to be stomping and flattening anyone who gets within 3ft of them, yet they just stand there trading stats.

Oh god... I've been missing PSO so bloody much lately. No other online games have come even remotely close to measuring up to that level for me...

WTB Bringer's Rifle
:-(

That said, as far as the GW bosses go, the standard fare of "same as normal enemies, but with boosted stats" is rather disappointing, but with their implementation in the game and the fact that they're just "there", I've basically just opted as seeing them as nothing more than another standard enemy.

Most of the EotN Dungeon end-bosses are rather disappointing as well (much like the dungeons themselves, but that's another issue entirely). Some, like Zoldark are alright, but in the end, I consider the best of them to be the low end of what such bosses SHOULD be. Fendi would be fun if he wasn't so tedious (seriously... closer res shrine, PLEASE).

Mallyx is a mixed bag... He himself would be a fun boss if it weren't for the spawns during the fight. They turn your attention away from him too much and make the whole thing more of a blur rather than allowing for any real atmosphere and mood to set in. Even still, he relies too much on cheap tricks for his difficulty, but feels like he could be adjusted to be a very fun boss.

Dhuum... looks fun from the videos I've seen. Also tedious, but I have no first-hand experience to judge; haven't been able to find a group for a full, balanced UW playthrough.

All-in-all, I'd really say the mechanics of the game preclude implementation of really "fun" boss battles, but even still some slower-paced, multi-stage battles with a major focus on atmosphere would be nice. Something other than "You enter the room with the boss, you run at each other like a normal encounter, and start spamming skills", would be desirable. I know I'm going to be called out for oversimplifying it, but that's how it feels to me. A boss battle should FEEL like a boss battle. There should be major focus on WHY you're fighting them or at least presentation that makes them feel truly distinct. Instead most feel like they're just another dude to kill...

Thus, I'd have to say that the Iron Forgeman is probably the best example of a boss GW has to offer. The whole Sorrow's Furnace questline built up to that and it had a degree of impact. Really, the Sorrow's Furnace update seemed like a major step in the right direction for GW, but everything since has seemed to go a different route... Would love to have seen more content presented as Sorrow's Furnace was...

Now back to my depression over my lack of PSO and Sega's recent incompetence... :-\

MasterSasori · Jan 18, 2010, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It's impossible, given GW's combat system, to make a boss that is challenging without being "cheap" and "cheesy." You either get something that's too easy, or something that is artificially and frustratingly hard because some normal rule or other is suspended.

....Unfortunately, the only things the devs can do to even out the fight are to (1) invalidate huge swaths of the player skillset with blanket immunities, (2) increase boss damage so high that you need a backline specially built around heavy mitigation, or (3) give the boss so much hp that the players become more likely to run out of energy or otherwise screw up their execution before they kill it. While these can make the boss harder, they do so in a way that feels unfair and doesn't feel like a "fun challenge." In fact, each of these things makes the boss less fun and more frustrating.

You could also get a boss that shifts in skills used. An ele that switches different types of elements used, or a switch in classes. Basically make a boss which fits the "theme" without using overpowered skills. This would also prevent specialized builds to fight the boss. They should also try to find a way to prevent the boss from being too vulnerable to certain farming/running builds. It's silly how the Great Destroyer and Shiro can be taken down by some sin spamming Moebius + Death Blossom or SF.

Or you could just wipe out PvE skills. I don't think I've seen a single serious PvE Paragon besides the Imbagon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

So what's the solution? To give up. Accept that you cannot make a boss that's a fun challenge and focus on making bosses with a cool "look and feel" and enough hp that the player realizes it's a boss before they kill it.

Because of the different skill levels of all players across GW, nothing can be fun for everyone because there will always be people who think it is too challenging or too easy.

Kaleban · Jan 18, 2010, 07:59 AM // 07:59

The problem is, the epic battles... aren't.

Multi-stage boss fights have been around since the days of MUDs, and nearly every RPG from Ultima to FF has them.

Why does GW lack this? Oh sure, you have certain examples like Fendi Nin or Varesh, but these are so few and far between, as well as being graphically uninspiring and unoticeable.

I mean, take Varesh for example, she's slowly being consumed by an evil GOD! Why, after she transforms into "commander" does she not have a third phase where the glowing energy of the god bursts forth, breaking the frail human shell, at which point your party basically has to fight the GW equivalent of the Starcraft Archon?

Even worse, apart from the name bar, its rather difficult to see anything has changed, not that its terribly important to your tactics (which is SHOULD be), but its sad that a game with such great landscape art lacks so much on character display.

I mean sure, you can stand around towns and look at other peoples' armors, but when you're in combat there's really no admiration for the character design, especially given the lackluster camera controls and viewing angles. Melee characters can't even see what they're hitting when going up against things like the Great Destroyer, or even giants and ettins. If you zoom out far enough to see, there's no detail.

Obviously, some of these issues are simply game engine limitations and are unlikely to be fixed. It remains to be seen if GW2 will allow a more immersive combat experience, seeing as the game is basically about combat, with lackluster storytelling and dialogue. I hate to say it, but if they want epic battles, they need to open up the gameworld as WoW does. A good base to start from is the Silent Surf mission where you fight the dragon. A multi stage battle and then the final boss fight. Good start, but the problem is really that much of GW fights, not just boss battles, is reminiscent of slot car racing.

Its somewhat sad when a selling point for a sequel in this era of gaming is, "now you can swim! And don't forget about jumping and limited vertical movement!"

/facepalm

Dark Saviour · Jan 18, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The problem is, the epic battles... aren't.
Even worse, apart from the name bar, its rather difficult to see anything has changed, not that its terribly important to your tactics (which is SHOULD be), but its sad that a game with such great landscape art lacks so much on character display.
/facepalm

This is another major issue I have with GW and it really hit me the hardest in Factions. In pretty much every "cutscene" Shiro's in, he just uses generic "emote" animations. He'll be wandering around with his blades out and then do the "Shoo" animation, and they'll just disappear and reappear as it ends... I know this is how the game engine works in general, but it would have been nice for them to have focused enough on presentation to properly animate such scenes rather than just using stock animations for them. The presentation of such scenes was so cheap, it was hard to take Shiro seriously as an enemy. He felt like he was there more as an obligatory antagonist than anything more...

Another thing that comes to mind that annoyed me about the bosses is the presentation of The Great Destroyer. As it had been built up, it seemed like it should be the equivalent of a God and seeing it as it exists in-game, it just makes the lore seem retroactively unimpressive... I would have rather that battle been more about preventing the emergence of the Great Destroyer before he could fully materialize in the world. Actually make his power as impressive as it was previously made out to be. Essentially, an "If he makes it here, the world is absolutely ****ed. The ONLY chance we have is to stop his arrival" sort of thing. And then, once you've barely managed to hold him off at a fraction of his power, THAT'S when we learn he's merely a lackey and his boss is on his way...

Would have made the ending of EotN far more exciting than it was with... that "thing" turning out to be the Great Dwarf's greatest nemesis...

glacialphoenix · Jan 18, 2010, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Honestly, the fights that should be epic aren't... even when I played GW through for the first time, Undead Rurik + Lich was easier than Glint in Dragon's Lair. If you count the Doppelganger as a boss, then that was interesting, but not epic.

My problem is that most of them seem rather anti-climactic after the missions that came before. NF: Shiro + the Lich = harder missions than fighting Abaddon himself - and Abaddon wasn't very... awe-inspiring either. Same for EotN: The Great Destroyer is one heck of a letdown after the previous primary quests and especially compared to some of the other dungeons.

Bosses I do like: The Iron Forgeman; several people have already said why. Glint; she's easier now because of power creep and PvE skills, but during my first playthrough she was far, far more challenging than Hell's Precipice ever proved to be.

cellardweller · Jan 18, 2010, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The problem is, the epic battles... aren't.

Multi-stage boss fights have been around since the days of MUDs, and nearly every RPG from Ultima to FF has them.

They've been dull battles since the days of MUDs too. As someone in this thread has aready said, instead of having big scripted bosses have boss teams, give them pvp builds and scale up the AI - voila instant epic battle.

Purus Sapientia · Jan 18, 2010, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by trialist

There isn't really much difference between the GW bosses to be honest.

They pretty much follow the formula of "Hulk smashes you! You tickle hulk" with the more difficult bosses being "Hulk smashes you more! You make hulk laugh" and the most difficult bosses being "Hulk absolutely pulverises you! You make hulk ROFL".

The problem with this is that without these boosted stats the boss fights would be far too easy, even if they had an amazing build and great AI because people would just examine the skills used by the boss and throw together a counter-build in no time at all. Now, without those boosted stats, the boss that, without that specific counter, was challenging due to its build and AI is now pathetically easy because, just as we've seen with Sabway and other builds like it, the GW playerbase flocks to whatever build breezes through what they're up against, so this previously awe-inspiring boss will be discarded in people's minds as that boss that I just need to load build X on hero Y to defeat easily.

4thVariety · Jan 18, 2010, 10:01 AM // 10:01

So many things would have to align: players relinquishing that utterly un-cinematic third person view, motion capturing bringing real performances, extensive camera work, an engine supporting real time cuts being made, and voice work, lot's of voice works. To round it off, there would also be some level of intricacy making sure that each cinematic isn't just something you skip after having seen it the first time.

Sure we would like to attack a dragon by ODST dropping on him in real time and walk on top of him Mega-Shadow of Colossus style, fighting monsters while the world around us spins like a roller coaster because the dragon is laying waste to a city where we see other real players fighting the dragon from the ground. But there is a technological side to consider in a multiplayer game as well. That and costs.

Lihinel · Jan 18, 2010, 10:28 AM // 10:28

So... why can't there be more Zelda like multi stage bosses with changing weakspots.
Could have worked for Mallyx too, if the immunities were spread over time and wouldn't all apply during the whole fight.
The idea for Abbadon himself wasn't bad in itself, its just the Monolith slaying repeating loop that may make it feel cheap for some people.

Meridon · Jan 18, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

The one boss I haven't seen mentioned yet is Rotscale. Discuss.

Personally, I still think of as the most awesome boss in GW. It's sheer resilience in terms of high HP make it tough to kill. Even though it doesn't do ludicrous amounts of damage, the mob protecting him does, and is well-balanced with positional advantage, poison traps, surprise popups and a couple of healers. All in all, wiping out the mob can be very challenging for a team, and the durability of Rotscale alone makes it a good test for a backline.

The only problem is that it can basically be done in HM by a 600/smite team with Grenth's Balance. Other than that, still an amazing and badass boss.

Riot Narita · Jan 18, 2010, 10:58 AM // 10:58

I like the Factions Shiro style... you go there first time, and get your ass kicked. You try again until you figure out how to beat him. But you don't have to spend an hour or more to reach him each time, before potentially finding out that your latest strategy still doesn't work.

Dhumm sucks in that respect. It takes ages to reach him with non-SC/non-Perma teams. And since the UW updates (skeles etc)... even with a full guild team, made of players that have years of GW experience, and consumables on at all times, and in Normal Mode... chances of failure at eg. 4 Horsemen is still ludicrously high. That's fine in Hard Mode, but in Normal Mode? Bah. I don't mind "L2P", I don't mind failure and having to work at something... it's having to spend huge amounts of time before you actually reach the point where you start learning/testing.

Lishy · Jan 18, 2010, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihinel

So... why can't there be more Zelda like multi stage bosses with changing weakspots.
Could have worked for Mallyx too, if the immunities were spread over time and wouldn't all apply during the whole fight.
The idea for Abbadon himself wasn't bad in itself, its just the Monolith slaying repeating loop that may make it feel cheap for some people.

This

I really wish bosses in general were more zelda-like in modern games instead of just spiking the enemy to death.

Reformed · Jan 18, 2010, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by headlesshobbs

If you want to see the best example, look at the bosses of phantasy star online

Quoting this because man is that the truth. De Rol Le and Vol Opt were tons of fun though and in spite of numerous repeats I never got bored killing them. Bosses with phases and random attack patterns are really the way to go. The Zelda analogy works here too.

trialist · Jan 18, 2010, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Purus Sapientia

The problem with this is that without these boosted stats the boss fights would be far too easy, even if they had an amazing build and great AI because people would just examine the skills used by the boss and throw together a counter-build in no time at all. Now, without those boosted stats, the boss that, without that specific counter, was challenging due to its build and AI is now pathetically easy because, just as we've seen with Sabway and other builds like it, the GW playerbase flocks to whatever build breezes through what they're up against, so this previously awe-inspiring boss will be discarded in people's minds as that boss that I just need to load build X on hero Y to defeat easily.

Randomness is the answer. However that is something GW isn't going to implement, hence let us go back to watching Hulk smash people up.

Abedeus · Jan 18, 2010, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Games with fun bosses are usually Japanese.

Zelda, Castlevania, Megaman, Ninja Gaiden 1/2...

All phased bosses, or just attacks that can't be simply blocked, must be evaded/countered. Requires more skill than just PROT SPIRIT ON THE TANK NOW!

Mr Fizhman · Jan 18, 2010, 03:32 PM // 15:32

The Doppleganger is one of the coolest bosses in-game. The first time you fought him was really epic. But as soon as you learned the trick about hexing him/her/it with some anti-melee or caster hex and just wait for it to do suicide, it got boring.

JimmyNeutron · Jan 18, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Duncan is the hardest boss!!! For a perma sin, it takes 4min from the moment you zone into the dungeon to kilingl him in HM!!! I hate that....so hard and so long.

But I guess Shiro in Faction is the best. About 15-30sec for an end-boss. Really sad, really, really sad. Even beginner island boss are harder than Shiro.